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Joint | February 11, 2015 | Committee Room | Appropriations, Transportation

Full MP3 Audio File

Good morning. I wanted to thank everybody for being here this morning, and I’d like to go ahead and get started. Let’s call the Transportation Committee meeting to order. I’d like to recognize our page, which is Connor Simone from Charlotte, and he is sponsored by Senator Hartsell. Thanks for being here today. With that said, I’d like to go ahead and get started. I’d like to recognize Amna Cameron to start the presentations please. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Thank you. Thank you Mr. Chair, co-chairs and members of the committee. My name is Amna Cameron. The purpose of this presentation is to provide you a snapshot of the DOT, to orient you to the big picture. Each topic that I discuss will be covered in much more detail as the education process continues. The format is quite simple. I start with a background, then we move into revenues, and then where the money is spent, so to start with the background, North Carolina has a very large transportation network with over 579 thousand miles. This is the second largest in the country, second to Texas, and North Carolina owns its secondary roads, and as we’ll see in the next chart, this is not the norm. North Carolina has a centralized system. The money flows to Raleigh out, and how are decisions made? In the highway fund, decisions are largely made by the Department of Transportation and approved by the Board of Transportation. The highway trust fund, this has changed. It is now decisions are made, which projects will be funded, through the STI prioritization process. Here are some statistics on how other states function. You can see in terms of the percentage or the total mileage that North Carolina is similar to South Carolina or Virginia, but North Carolina controls more mileage. I will say as a brief aside, interrupt me if you have presentation questions as I go through my presentations. Feel free not to wait until the end. So as you can see, North Carolina has 75% of the total mileage in the state. The remaining mileage will of course come from two sources: the municipal roads, private roads, and also some federal roads. In terms of a national perspective, there are three states, as you can see, including the state of Virginia, that have a higher percentage, but the other two states have drastically lower mileage totals. On average, states maintain only one in five road miles. The rest are owned by localities or regional entities such as turnpike authorities. To begin the background, in 1915, the state established the State Highway Commission, and it was to provide road-building assistance to the counties. Through the 1920s, the state took over 55 miles of county roads, and at the time, it raised the gas tax to 5 cents a gallon. That translates into 63 cents in today’s terms. Keep in mind out rate today is 37.5 cents per gallon. The legislature enacted or authorized 115 million in bonds, and this earned the state the moniker “The Good Road State”. In 1931, counties were officially removed from the road-building process, and in 1951, the legislature created a funding source for municipal roads. Called the Powell Bill at the time, it is now more frequently called the Aid to Municipalities Program. In the 80s,

This might sound familiar, you had maintenance needs that were growing but there wasn't enough money to fund construction programs, maintenance needs. There wasn't enough money to meet the federal matching requirements to match, to maximize your federal funds. As a result, the Highway Study Commission was established. It met for over two years and in the end what came out of it was the creation of the Highway Trust Fund. The Highway Trust Fund had a very specific goal. It was to connect every North Carolinian from, I think ten miles from a four lane highway. It was to construct urban loops. It was to pave a vast number of unpaved roads, and to give more money to the municipalities. Look at these goals now. Essentially, well the goals now are to have roads constructed based on prioritized needs, that would of course include urban loops, or the interstate system, and secondary roads. It no longer meets these original principles. In 2002, the Turnpike Authority was created and it was moved under DOT in 2009. In 2007, the counties start coming back online, and when the legislature authorized the counties to financially participate in putting money forth for right-a-way construction, maintenance activities, it's my understanding that at the time the intent of the legislature was to give counties the authority to pursue transfer taxes as a funding source to contribute for their local projects but that did not happen. This takes us to modern day, with truly the revolutionary Strategic Transportation Investment Bill that passed in 2013. This funding awards money based on three tiers, 40% goes to a statewide tier that is 100% data driven, 30% goes to regional entities, of which there are seven, and that is distributed by population, and 30% is distributed equally to the 14 highway divisions. Let's do a brief recap of everything that happened in the 2013-2014 session. We talked about STI but the session did so much more than that. It dedicated a bridge program for maintenance at $153M dollars. It established a pavement preservation fund at $65M. It established what is a, what I refer to as the STIP for maintenance activities, and DOT has done a great job developing that and it will be coming to you at the end of March, or April 1st, specifically. It established a statewide prioritization program for unpaved roads. Now, of course we do this now in the STI in the statewide category, but again, this was revolutionary doing this in a maintenance program because all maintenance dollars are handed out by formulas set by the DOT board based on population or lane miles. But what we, the legislature, did is it said it is going to prioritize statewide. It doesn't matter how many your region has, it matters what the priority is, and we will see the results of that a little later. They did significant privatization and outsourcing in road maintenance and construction programs and key DMV IT projects were advanced. So this is a snapshot, now, of your total revenues. The chart on the left are state revenues, compared to the chart on the right which includes federal revenues. You can see overall, 59% come from the Motor Fuels Tax. That is 1.9B

billion dollars. On the federal side, your federal funds, are about $1.2B dollars. Your next source of revenue is $631M in the Highway Use Tax, but we will get into this in much more detail. I understand Bryce covered the current consensus forecast with you yesterday so I will move on to that and this is my favorite chart. It shows where the revenues come from and where they are spent. So we start, and you see you have two funds, you have a Highway Fund, this is your maintenance fund. It also includes operations, it includes your five intermodal divisions, it includes DMV, and it includes the transfers that come out of the Highway Fund. I will make a note that on the committee website for today I have a folder called "reference materials" where I deposited some information, some reading material for you, and in that reference material there is a spreadsheet that gives you a list of all of the transfers to other state agencies. The one I will denote here is the General Fund transfer, and that is the transfer that used to be directly made to the State Highway Patrol, but now it is to the General Fund. The Motor Fuels Tax is your power horse in the Highway Fund, 75% of your revenues go to the Highway Fund, the remaining 25% to the Highway Trust fund. Then you see Highway Trust Fund is followed up by Motor Fuels and DMV titling and fees, and that goes to STI. So let's start with Motor Fuel Taxes, because that is your driving revenue source. The rate is 37.5 cent/gallon until the end of this fiscal year and the formula is two part. It is 17.5c fixed plus a variable component of 7% of the average price of gasoline for a six-month period. It is reset twice a year, on January and on July 1st. As a general rule, when you think, "Well how much does one cent cost?" That equates to about $50M dollars. So I have the Lost In Space robot in my presentation, where I'm pointing out areas of caution that I want you to denote. My first area of caution is with the Motor Fuel Taxes. Consumption is going to decrease. The less gas that is sold means the less revenues will be produced. We'll be talking about the fuel standards and the increase in fuel efficiency a bit later. So we'll turn to the chart now, and as you can see, the Motor Fuels Tax has done pretty well in terms of having that slow growth. But, to give you some numbers, 2014 and 2015 are at $1.9B dollars. The forecast for motor fuels drops that down to $1.5B. So look how far that number will drop. Well how do we compare to other states? North Carolina, as you know, is a high gas tax state, we're actually sixth highest in the nation and there is also an additional tax in North Carolina. The rate is 37.5 cents/gallon but there is an additional .25 cent/gallon for an inspection fee. This chart includes all taxes, whether it be local gas taxes, federal gas taxes, and speaking of the federal gas tax rate, it has not been raised since 1993. That rate is 18.4 cent/gallon

Now, diesel taxes in North Carolina is the eighth highest. How can that be? That is because many states tax diesel differently. You have 13 states plus the federal government that choose tax diesel taxes higher than gasoline. The federal rate is $.06 cents higher than its gasoline tax. Let's move on to the power horse in the highway trust fund and this is the Highway Use Tax. The Highway Use Tax is 3% of the vehicle value less net of trades. What does that mean? That means you go to a dealership and you purchase a $20,000 vehicle and you trade-in your car and the dealership says, "That car is worth $5,000." That means you pay a 3% tax on $15,000. North Carolina is now the lowest in any of our surrounding states. There is one exception. South Carolina has a 5% rate but they have a $300 cap. So, realistically, they do have a higher rate but the cap makes it lower than North Carolina. Tennessee, 7%. Florida, 6%. Georgia, 6.5%. Virginia, right now, it's 4.2%, January 1, 4.3%. Look at 2009, look how closely tied the Highway Use Tax is to the economy. When the economy went through that severe recession, car sales, needless to say, plummet. So keep in mind that source is very tied to economic health but what do we have going forward? We have really strong growth. This is the only growth you have in transportation that is significant. So if you look to 2014, that's $600M dollars right there, right on the nose. This current year that's going up to $630. The forecast has it going higher. It goes up to $655M in the first year of the biennium, up again to $672M in the second year of the biennium. Licenses and Fees, this is what DMV does and these are fees on your driver's license, your truck license, your vehicle registrations, and I want you to look again at the chart and look at that big jump between 2005 and 2006. 2005, that represents $520M dollars. The legislature raised fees in 2005, almost 20%. So that number in 2006 increased to $665M. Now what will we have going forward and you have very minor but stable increases in your DMV fees. This takes us to federal aid. Right now there is a federal transportation bill called MAP-21, Moving Ahead Progress in the 21st Century, and it is on its first eight month CR. Prior to MAP-21 being passed, the prior transportation bill had, I believe, 17 CR's before MAP-21 could be implemented and MAP-21 was a really great bill. They did significant changes. It made substantial program consolidations, it added additional tolling authority, and it increased the TIFIA Loan Program. North Carolina has been the beneficiary of one TIFIA Loan, the Triangle Expressway, and I believe DOT is crossing its fingers that we will have a second TIFIA loan for the I-77 project. These are typically given for P3

Projects but the benefit of these competitive long programs are the interest rates, oh, and there's the robot again. And the robot should really be bigger here because I am very concerned about the stability of Federal revenues in the future. Now, let me orient you to this chart. The top line, the red line, that is your actual and your projected spending of federal transportation dollars across the nation. The blue line, that is how much revenue the Federal Government generates for its Federal Highway Trust Fund. Now, how is it that you can have less revenue then what they are currently expending, and that is because largely the gas tax doesn't produce that revenue that is necessary and congress isn't acting to have another dedicated funding stream or a higher dedicated funding stream through the gas tax. So they have bailed out the Highway Trust Fund to the tune of $53 billion. This isn't sustainable. In the beginning they earn, you know the 2008-09 period there wasn't the crunch that there is on the Highway Trust Fund and the General Fund, but now they can't use the General Fund to bail out the Highway Trust Fund. They have to find another source. That is why you have these minimal CRs because they can find money for six months, right now for eight months and it's not sustainable and what DOT needs is a long term bill. So what do they do? Well, they, in the past, there's currency art. They took $1 billion out of the Federal Rust Fund. They had already take a billion dollars. There's no more money to take there. They made some tension reforms and that is how they bailed out this current year's budget, but again, that bill expires in May and there is no money to sustain the revenues. Well, what happened last year? Last year we were in this crunch of them having to pass this Transportation CR but there wasn't enough money and the Highway Trust Fund can't actually legally become broke. It reaches a threshold and then DOT says we are slowing down and then we are stopping Federal reimbursements. That happened last summer. North Carolina was fortunate in that it did a good job of planning ahead and so that North Carolina received its Federal reimbursement a little ahead of schedule, but the same thing will happen this year. The same thing. Federal reimbursements to the states will start to reduce in the summer time. What happens in the summer time? That's when you build roads, and just for a little bit of information, you know, this works on a reimbursement basis. DOT pays and then we wait for Federal reimbursement, so when the Federal government doesn't reimburse us, that means our state revenues can't be used for other projects. Toll lanes. Again, on the reference material page I have the North Carolina 2014 annual report. You have one existing toll road in the state. The [Trimal?] Expressway is an 18.8 mile that is located in Wake County. It opened in 2011 and in the last fiscal year it generated $19.7 million in revenue. In 2009 they conducted a traffic and revenue study that projected what they would need to generate in toll revenues, and that amount was $17.6 million, so the turnpike is meeting its projections. Gap funding is a, has been awarded for 29 years and we will talk about that when we get to the Highway Trust Fund. The planned Monroe

Connector is a twin bell stretch that starts in Eastern Mecklenburg County, down to Union County, and this shows the problem DOT has. A reparative decision was issued, what that means is that you have all of your federal permits and construction can begin. A lawsuit was filed, but we had already issued the debt for the Monroe Connector. We went through this process, DOT went through this process, eventually through the court system, the ROD was able to be re-awarded last spring. A lawsuit has been filed again, there has not been an injunction to stop DOT from proceeding forward, so they are starting the right-of-way process for the Monroe Connector. To date, because the bonds were issued, we repay those bonds every month to some $51.4M dollars to date. We have our first P3 project that's about to be finalized. The I-77 Hot Lane Project. It is a 26-mile project that converts an existing HOV lane to a high-occupancy tolling lane, plus it adds another lane. The company called Cintra was selected last year and it is the hope that financial close can happen some time next month. This project cost $655M dollars but it's first a toll project and a P3 project, which means that private companies bringing money to the table. In exchange, they get to set the toll rates for that project. The state is contributing $88M dollars plus a mechanism called DRAM, and that means when the toll road is operational and revenues don't meet a certain threshold, the state, at a maximum level, may need to send this private company up to $12M dollars if these limits are hit again once the road is operational. So, let's sum it up. You have your fuel economy improving. The corporate average fuel economy, that's your CAFE standards, let's just review what those are. These are for new passenger cars. In 1978 it was 18 miles per gallon. 2019, that goes to 47 miles per gallon. 2025, the CAFE standard is raised to 60 miles per gallon. You have an increase sell in the future, of course, shifting to hybrids and electric. That's going to take away your consumption of motor fuel taxes, and that leads to the expected declines in consumption. We'll talk in maintenance, when we get to the spending side, on the effects of inflation. So, that's not a good picture for the future of your motor fuels tax. So let's move on. Well, you also have DMV taxes, fees, I should say. Again, that's stable. It's minor growth. Then you have this really strong growth in your Highway Use Tax. So why am I saying that that doesn't balance out? Why do I say this is an area of caution? Well, immediately, it's the price at the pump, and I want to take you down to the bottom of the chart and talk about those numbers there. In the Highway Fund, your Motor Fuels Tax is, again, it's your power horse. It's 70% of your Highway Fund right now. Based on the projected revenue estimates in two years, it becomes 65%. The other funding sources is your DMV fees, and that doesn't do anything to offset that. So what that means is that your highway fund just loses revenue. There's nothing to make up for that. In your Highway Trust Fund, your Highway Use Tax is your driving force, it's 52% now. Based on the forecast, in two years, it becomes 57%. It's your growth

But it’s growing so fast that that 25% of motor fuel tax that is deposited into the account, it covers that, and it gives you more money on top of it, so let’s spend a little bit more time on the motor fuel loss in the highway fund. What this shows is a comparison based on the amount of revenue in this current year’s budget, so in two years, you’re going to have 376 million dollars less just in motor fuel taxes. That increases in four years to 750, up to 850 in six years. Now let’s think big picture and let’s get away from the February forecast. Let’s look back at last year’s forecast. DO gives a ten-year forecast to develop the STIP, so if you compare those numbers to the forecast that came out last year before we knew the gas tax was going to sink, that would be actually a billion dollar loss in your highway fund, adding another 300 million in your last year highway trust fund. Oh my goodness, the robot again. Now I have a disclaimer here. This is a report – an exceptional report – that the Chamber hired NC State to produce. The report is on the committee website, and it takes DOT’s statements and its work that says what its needs are in the future. I am not saying that I have in any way independently confirmed that this is an actual statement of their true needs, but this is to show you because this is… these numbers are so much in the public, what they really mean. Now it says, and I will actually read to you, “By 2040, the state will require 94.1 billion to simply maintain the transportation system conditions as they exist today,” and then you see how much revenue is going to be brought in, and it gives you a best-case scenario, but let’s look at this another way. This is 24 years away. I’m thinking of course in budget years; the next year’s budget is fiscal year 15-16. 24 years. So this says to keep your existing system, you have to raise revenues 34.4 billion dollars over the 24 years. That means every year, 1.8 billion dollar more. Take that in. Every year for the next 24 years, what DOT and this report are telling you is to maintain the status quo, 1.8 billion a year. But let’s say you have higher ambitions. Let’s say you want to meet those optimal conditions. 3.7 billion per year. Let’s remember, your total state revenue now is 3.2 million currently. That’s before the forecast that you’re going to experience next year. Now we’re into the spending side of the highway fund. As I said, that is your maintenance account. Maintenance and operations. Of that 1.9 billion, 1.2 is for maintenance. In the miscellaneous you have your intermodal categories, you have DMV, your municipality, and again, as a reminder, there is that document on today’s website that gives you a complete accounting of the transfers, and we said we would talk more about inflation, but we’ll get to that. Your maintenance accounts, there are six of them. Your primary system account is dedicated to your interstate routes, your North Carolina routes, your US routes. Your secondary system

that's 64,000 of your miles, $262M goes to that account. Your contract resurfacing funds, that gives you that great, smooth riding quality top, that account is $408M. There is a new account for pavement preservation this year, and that gives you a full surface treatment that is thin but it extends the pavement life so you can wait longer to resurface. You have the bridge program and you have a reserve account. So I want to talk now, oh my goodness there's the robot again, because we're talking now about inflation. I chose to 2008 because that's pretty in the recent future. So when you compare the CPI adjustment to 2008 dollars, the thousand dollars that is used now has the buying power, really, of $886M dollars now. Secondary roads, that's where your roads are, 64,300, 95% of your secondary road system is now paved. You have to dedicated funding streams. You have a maintenance fund that we just discussed and you have a highway construction fund. This is your unpaved road program and it is maxed at $12M a year. When I gave this presentation two years ago I thought it was interesting to see how many fewer miles are unpaved and DOT has completed 277 compared to two years ago. What do these terms mean on the unpaved categories? Eligible means those roads are ready to be paved. On-hold, those typically mean that you have a private property owner who's not willing to give right-of-way to have the clearance to expand that road and so DOT doesn't have the authority to pave those. Now here is a great map of where the miles exist. Ashe and Wilkes, and really all of Division 12, which is in that area, that's where the majority of your unpaved roads are but what is interesting to me is in this year's prioritization process Division 14, which is those far west counties, they received the majority of the roads. I don't believe Division 11 received funding for any roads in the prioritization process. It's a shame because Ashe and Wilkes, as we'll discuss next, had the highest number of structurally deficient bridges, too. There is no one on the committee that covers those roads but they have their hands full. Bridges, there he is again, DOT says you need to be very concerned about the number of structurally deficient bridges that this state has. You have 16.4% of all your bridges are structurally deficient. Now, what does this mean? This means they're in poor condition. It doesn't mean that they are falling down but it does mean they need to be fixed. 78 counties have structurally deficient bridges over 10%. Why do I say 10%, because that is DOT's goal. DOT wants to get to a limit of 10% structurally deficient bridges. It will cost $4.3B to fix these bridges. Functionally obsolete make up 23% of the total bridges, it will cost $5B to fix those. Typically, functionally obsolete means that the road currently or in the future will not meet traffic projections. So it typically needs to be widened.

both in structurally and functionally obsolete categories also indicate perhaps that there are vague limitations on the bridge [SPEAKER CHANGE] ?? you have a questions? [SPEAKER CHANGE] I cant move my little thing here. ?? for me to ask questions during the presentations so i wanted to know about structurally deficient and functionally obsolete bridges. are they... How many are included in both? [SPEAKER CHANGE] I will get those figures for you and send them to the committee. we do have that. I dont have them here. I will say that on the website I have listed, by county, every structurally deficient bridge by county. DOT says focus on structurally deficient. Fix those and dont worry about the functionally obsolete at this time. This chart shows you your total structurally deficient bridges, your functionally obsolete plus your deficient culverts. Do you see that ?? Do you see wade county there? No you shouldn't wade county has over 200. What is DOT telling you? What is has told the oversight committee is what you need to do to fix structurally deficient bridges. To maintain the status quo. If you are happy as legislators having 16% of all your bridges in the state being structurally deficient even though the national average is 7% then you'll need to appropriate 40 million dollars more each year to maintain that 16%. Lets say you have higher ambitions. Lets say you want DOT to meet it's 10% goal. $90 million more dollars per year to reach the 10% goal in 15 years. to meet the 10% goal, $115 million every year more. 7 years, you have to add $165 million, more than double what the current appropriation is [SPEAKER CHANGE] Mister chair ??? [SPEAKER CHANGE] I mean it certainly could. It actually more of a sign of deficient culverts in wake county. Moving on to the Powell bill. The formula is 75% population, 25% milage and through STI it is limited to a funding force from the highway fund. it is 10.4% of your motor fuel revenues in the highway fund. Now because of this formula, what this means is that if you are in an area that is losing population, you are losing Powell bill funding. What I find interesting here again when i'm comparing the numbers i used 2 years ago to today what surprised me is the change in populations. 2 years ago I looked at the % change from 1985 to 2012. 91% growth in populations. in just 2 years that changed to 96%. I have never thought the formula made sense. When I think of the need maintenance $, I think what matters most is your milage. While yes, population will cause more damage, more traffic, but perhaps traffic count would be a more reasonable measurement. Dot produced a report for the legislature

...I'd like to add: But what would happen to each city if you changed that funding formula? What if it's 50/50? What if 75% is based on mileage? That report is also on today's website. Now, keep in mind going forward, this is Motorfields (???) Heights only so you see it's been pretty steady since 2010. It was held harmless when the change was made to kick it out of the highway trust fund and limit it to the highway fund for that funding will significantly decrease with the reductions to the motor fuel tax in the highway fund. And that takes us to your inter-modal categories, Gunn. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Senator Gunn. [SPEAKER CHANGES] That you, Mr. Chair. Going back to the ?? bill. What is that exact dollar amount? [SPEAKER CHANGES] I will look it up to you because Bryce is bringing the numbers and he will, he will get it for us. It has five inter-modal areas. We'll start with ferries. You have the second largest ferry network in the country. Twenty-two ferries that serve seven routes. Your public transportation. Your bike-ped and your aviation. These are largely grant making entities with the exception of aviation who controls this state aircraft fleet. Rail. You have two rail routes The Piedmont that runs three times a week from Raleigh to Charlotte and the Carolinian, running from Charlotte to New York City. You have 3500 miles of track. You have two ports: one in Morehead City, one in Wilmington. And then you have the Global-Trans park that is funded at $750,000 currently. So let's go back to our pie chart so you can see how that funding is distributed. You have 172 million going to your five inter-modal divisions. The majority, 85 million, goes to public transportation. Ferry has 39 million, rail has 24 million. Aviation 22. That takes us to DMV. DMV serves 7.9 million licensed drivers, 8.7 million registered vehicles. There are a 112 licenses offices that operate in the state and there are 122 license plate agencies. The bulk of DMV's budget, 47 million, goes to driver's licensing. Second is vehicle registration at 21 million. And that takes us to the highway trust fund, and the Strategic Transportation Investment Program, and I'm going to come back to this because I am just enthralled by this chart. STI takes out a lot of things of the highway trust fund so that it could focus on construction. So in 2013 you had the 18 municipalities program that no longer exists. The mobility fund no longer exists. Before that, the highway trust fund transferred to the general fund before it was eliminated and so in 2013 you had 735 million dollars going to your construction accounts. The STI has a billion dollars in it this year. On bonds, bonds you are being repaid. You have debt affordability here. In 2013 that 8% represents 80 million dollars. You are paying them down. So this year you are spending 60 million dollars and you do have debt capacity. But 1.2 billion does not exist. The treasurer's debt affordability study that was released on February 1st of this year shows that the transportation debt capacity is 1 billion dollars, however, that numbers is based on the...

Revenues generated to show how much debt capacity you have. We are on old numbers. You need to use the current forecast to say how much can you issue to reach the 6 percent debt capacity recommendation and that drops to $874 million. The treasuries office will be coming in and speaking to you about that later in the committee. So let's move back and talk about but what happened to the STI. Over a course it was a prioritization process to determine which project should be funded and that has been turned in to a draft STIP from 2016 to 2025 and it includes 1100 projects. Also on the website is a breakout of what those 1100 projects are in terms of transition projects or by pad or aviation or highway. So that is on the website. In terms of the estimates, over this 10-year period the highway trust fund revenues plus your federal revenues are expected to generate $22.7 billion over that 10 year period. The STIP has 14.8 billion in it. So of course the rest of the money is administration. It is the 49 million each year for the turnpike authority and if you are paying off your debt. So this brings me near the conclusion. What are your considerations, what are your priorities? Your priorities maybe maintenance, it maybe that you see the inflationary rate, you don’t have the buying power that you used to have. Perhaps it's strictly decision bridges, perhaps it's ferries or ports. Perhaps you want more funding for the STI in the trust fund. You have a whole list of options and you need to decide well, how much revenue do you need to spend to fund what your priorities are and lastly what options do you have to raise revenues and Tuesday's presentation to this committee will be giving you an overview of what other states do and what your options are for the states. And then I always think it's a good idea to ask. Well, is the money that you are currently spending going to the right places. That could be through the STI, but also do you agree when DOT presents that it's spending formula for secondary roads make sense. Does the spending formula for bridges, does that make sense? So in summary North Carolina has a very large system. It is unique in that it controls the secondary roads. The second is the condition of the state highway system is a tier rating and you may need to consider additional funding and lastly North Carolina is a growing state. So, growing population will put further demands on the system. Thank you. [Speaker Changes] Any questions from the committee? Any questions at all? Okay. Thank you. I appreciate it. Oh, one thing I wanted to...oh right I am sorry. [Speaker Changes] Paul ??. [Speaker Changes] Yes, sir. [Speaker Changes] The level of funding for the ?? for the current US budget is 146,328,000 all coming from the highway fund again. That is an increase of about $9.5 million from the long session budgeted amount. [Speaker Changes] Could you repeat that value? [Speaker Changes] $146.3 million. [Speaker Changes] Okay. Representative Martin. [Speaker Changes] Thank you, sir. [Speaker Changes] Yes sir. [Speaker Changes] I have a question for Ms. Cameron. Is the robot paid fund presentation... [Laughter] [Speaker Changes] Any more questions? Yes, sir. Senator Ford. [Speaker Changes] Thank you Mr. Chairman. I want a note from the staff as it relates to the Department of Transportation transfers to other state agencies. I am noticing a trend of a decline out of from 14 into...

Does that trend continue beyond fifteen? [SPEAKER CHANGES] Are you speaking of the 440 million of transfers to other departments? [SPEAKER CHANGES] I’m looking at 160 million for fifteen. [SPEAKER CHANGES] The legislature made some cuts in earlier budgets to reduce funding to agriculture and the department of revenue, largely to align to what it was currently spending versus what it was appropriated. So that is a reflection of that. There would not be further declines without legislative action. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Yes sir, Rep. ?? [SPEAKER CHANGES] The question I’m guessing is that at the chart we have showing the red counties and so forth… [SPEAKER CHANGES] Which number? [SPEAKER CHANGES] Chart one. [SPEAKER CHANGES] I have a question. Each ?? is a quorum but this absolute number. I mean quantity, the quantity of bridges in Guilford and weight in Guilford and other counties with high population, is that also…would this be a function of absolute number? And percentage money not being spent? [SPEAKER CHANGES] There are charts—I have charts actually on my office wall that have the number of culverts and bridges in each county and the amount that it would cost each county to fix that. I will have DOT send those to me electronically, but what is on the web is what DOT says to focus on, and that’s what’s structurally deficient and they’re listed by county. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Representative Sheperd. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Thank you Mr. Chair. Another question I have concerning the bridges in Guilford and Wake county are some of these bridges, these culverts, along the interstate highway system, is that included in your analysis here as well? [SPEAKER CHANGES] The total deficient. Total deficiency. [SPEAKER CHANGES] So would the funding for any of these be paid for out of Federal money? [SPEAKER CHANGES] When STI was created, DOT made the decision that they were going to limit bridge funding in the highway trust fund. This used to be over a million dollars and they are limiting that to 50 million dollars to focus its Federal money on highways. And so largely your bridge program is what is used to fix these bridges. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Any more questions from the committee? [SPEAKER CHANGES] Alright, having none, I wanted to recognize one of our pages that was not recognized at the beginning of the meeting. Amanda Patton, Orange County, thank you for being here and sorry I did not recognize you at the beginning of the meeting. Any more questions from the committee? If not, the committee stands adjourned. Thank you.