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House | May 21, 2013 | Committee Room | Finance

Full MP3 Audio File

Tough and Dennis up this morning from the end of the phantom butt-head attention below the calendar today and so did everybody who knows what that would plant a good buy them planned taken that has put 945 each morning and of the incentives so that those that are speaking to respect the time of the motion, the concise and bitter political so we can't undo button issues to be heard from Baker much we do that with this issue and the assertion Angeles to fit hands of (SPEAKER CHANGES) Mr. the seals Mr. John Brennan Mr. Mike Leavitt Mr. Campbell a Mr. Barrymore and Mr. Patrick nation that bill Lewis and three should this morning and for the suits of the day that only a lowly status 20 eight with a project a pages this morning but they just when a chance to Spencer from had been any list recent hands to come from for slight lead anywhere this morning initiative from gates the Canadian Minister Jan Mr. From idea to me and should come from this man from either Canada from NFL Sophia the challenges they would go zone without much talking to his representative for one year that anyone would you like to direct contravention of the morning this is something that the visits that it's about one 4th and public safety from this bill that's in contrast, send a patient unforgiving for the Mac unit that had a proposed initiative of the forest and that's a censure motion to push many such too bad about that from(SPEAKER CHANGES) the special purposes than wonderful Lady Sarah politician that decibel recognizes that illegal immigration is a Federal responsibility and accountability compass is this provisions from a bible said Colwell including recapping affect people who are here are some state illegally is not about enforcing immigration law that has clearly been established by the Federal government has responsibility of the Federal government and they have taken great pains and seven other states two of that message and that is this about public safety and want this to take steps to address the hardened criminal activity is being performed in the state but people are here legally and illegally as well that temptations are parts in the battle by those parts address some of the existing statutes and from the quiet place a few new ones so, go through this should put 10 to the vendor sponsors of the presents a challenge and attended by about a representative Collins will come in, after me think of are different parts of the bill for you as well, as I made that that this increase penalties for send faxes to that address the manufacture and sale and possession of counterfeit documents the sole addresses what would be prosecuted are considered for the ballot forms of ID in North Carolina , (SPEAKER CHANGES) so we can hires that that they put here in the state illegally come forth 10, 530, a mistake to try to prevent which is a bug that a chair from the state that we step of the petition card is unconscious requirement that the bad for the center, four pitcher of the vehicle as the injured by someone who does not have when these restricted driver permits or work is driving a revoked license for their yearly put away the bush said today that the session as pretrial release for certain crimes, but that should have really made a mistake that set-asides-suffer the same as they sit and med man, said that after conviction today, the devices take the custom question racial that sent out arises ??............

To verify the immigration status with any person they stop or detain that they have reasonable suspicion that they may be in the state illegally and the bill also prohibits the award of state contracts to any c=out of state contractor who is not complying with the states e verify laws. That’s it pretty much in a nutshell. I’m going to introduce representative Brian Brown to cover the first couple parts of the bill. [Speaker Changes] Rep brown you have the floor [Speaker Changes] Thank you Mr. chairman members good morning, the first two sections of the bill is what I will cover. The part 2 of the bill increase s penalties for possession manufacturing or sell of false identify documents of false identification essentially we are moving it form a class 1 misdemeanor to a class I felony and those documents include things like any type of identification card issued by a state that has a pictured a military identify card a passport an alien registration card containing a picture the second section of part 2 increases the penalties for selling and manufacturing of drivers permits, drivers license or the restricted drivers permit and the beef of that section actually increases it to a class h felony from a class I felony so just a little more teeth and we’re all there. Section 3 of the bill deals with rebuttable presumption to pre trail release the originally bill that we filed made a few changes to it so basically two very important changes related to the rebuttable assumption to pre trail release first it changes to release cost to probably cause the standard that judge must believe that an un documented alien has committed one of the listed crimes and those crimes can be things like a sex offense assault things like that. And before the presumption before pre trial release becomes operable. Second it would not require ice to guarantee that a detainer will be issued against the offenders in all cases or to reimburse the state for cost of incarceration before the pre trial release. Essentially we just thought as though we could not guarantee that ice would make those guarantees or that retribution to use. With that I will turn over to Jonathan Jordan to explain parts 4 and 5 [Speaker Changes] Thank you Mr. chairman. Colleagues I am goanna go over briefly sections 4 5 and 6. 4 is the one where we are goanna require that persons who are unlawfully prisoned in the united states in the custody of the dept. of corrections would reimburse the state for the actual cost of the prisoners incarceration. The amount will be accessed and collected by the division an d remitted to the general fund any un paid reimbursement can be set off against any NC Income tax refund due to prisoner and the department of revenue may pursuit collection of the debt through set off for at least 10 years. A portion of any funds earned through work release could also be deducted to reimburse the state. Section 5 is the Arizona section that survived the constitutional review by the supreme court and it would authorize law enforce officers agencies to make reasonable attempts to verify the immigration status of any person stopped detained or arrested where there is reasonable suspicion that the person not lawfully present in the US. Verification would not be necessary if the person provided certain valid of identification or if it was not practical to verify the person’s immigration status or it would hinder or obstruct an investigation. Verification would also not be required for person contacting law enforcement to act as a witness to a crime or a report criminal activity or to seek assistance as victim of a crime. And the bill would require the implementation of the requirement to verify the status must be consistent with any federal law and protection of federal rights. Section 6 provides for the verification of a persons immigration status in a manner consistent with federal law and provides for the admissibility of any records pertaining to the person’s immigration statues and it would also provide the transport of persons unlawfully present in the us to a federal facility. It was in section 6 misc. sections. At this point I will turn it over to representative Collins. [Speaker Changes] We will go briefly through sections 7 and 8. Section 7 is just what it says. Prohibits the use of certain documents for identification purposes. On page 10 section a deals with identifying yourself before any judge justice law enforcement officer anybody else who’s a government representative and basically says that the only foreign document to accept is a foreign passport. Section 7c makes the same statement for insures if persons trying to get automobile insurance.

And then no law section seven of the Lexus sites they don't know if the person is applying for Medical Systems buffets section eight help at the powerful money there are 5588 Leslie says that the law the county almost contract with people using either 500-1608 associate the ball so the city must do something section eight C says the state borrowed everybody the state are institutions that whenever most exciting thing of eight bales of bills listing all employees and all accepts people who are seasonal employees and at the top of page 13 is probably the most of all misunderstood part of the sections about 10 deal with when that very first line says (SPEAKER CHANGES) no more palatable legal district and robbers from it if you look down the paragraph of the commissioner shall not only are you sure you're making a scheduling pose any penalty under this article lauded the personals restricted this part of full bill swift be verified is not saying that the buccaneers dream of its own employer is hiring and college, on the illegal alien has legislated from its biggest elite are finally allowed because that doesn't have to use either fun you can have a charge of not using the there are five to determine whether the person she really were not the most originally really want a thoroughly checking dollars firm is there here illegally so that the site you for your can be charged with hiring an illegal alien I still eat or that U.S. can have another charge tacked onto was not using the verifier to determine this person's status between those that restricting the restored what their status he is obviously this line is saying that gives employers part Blanche to Harley lives of those on the dissenters said it will not allow tackle majority of not using your five to determine this first established a net goal by sloughs seconds of the 79 days as a section nine which is some other good many simplification section nine requires people were illegally to come forth, shadows and qualify for either a restricted driver's permit or restrict the North Carolina ID these are two new entities that will be two entities off the North Carolina there is no comparison, stresses there's no comparison between a restricted driver's permit the pending North Carolina legal driver's license the driver's license identify issues being here, (SPEAKER CHANGES) is allows Americans say the same and legally present in this respect the driver's permit clearly states that are no legal presents no legal status is simply by authorizes the individual to do with Airbus a gun right now Lyons is driving our highways that the requirements to get this approach will important in reason behind that of the reasons behind public safety and 1/4 rich people to passages is no test that the time that feeling that the west and has said that to a criminal background check which includes fingerprints the stuff that they had been a rise of North Carolina for least one year prior to this past April 1, 2013 NFS up like this are the identity of the SSA provided proof 05 financial were fiscal responsibility this bomb-shirts and bush would be required the prepaid for the duration of the club allegation that permit which is one year in the subject of them to take and pass the physical reading an eye exam sodium they this is the most hyped requirements for driving privileges in any of these, states that have a summer program back any from Co. 2007 them easily had the open up the DMV here four from illegally present folks and simply open up the DNA we're not doing that well following the suit that to New Mexico and Washington has done watch a state where they've also been a parody of the caucuses this is a respected that inkling that does not confer to the two rights or privileges of citizenship upon the other to death about 64 systems for your constituents to step up to a driving 10 our state now in there that, without having been tested ago, five without the verification that they know the rules and that ??.....

And with out driving privileges. there is also a misconception, I think, in what constitutes an illegal immigrant in NC its been estimate that between 42% and 48% of the folks who are here in the country illegally, came here legally to began with, and have simply over stay there work visa or student visa. This are folks who are vetted in the work system. This are folks who will eventually become citizens of the federal government continue in the path that they are. This is NC opportunity to set the requirements in place. To stay ahead of the curb, sort of speak. As we learn from the Daka situation a couple of months ago. Once the federal government confers legal presence on illegal folks. They by determination by the attorney general will be able to walk into the DMV right now and get a drivers license. Same as you or me or your son or your daughter. Right now we have the opportunity to set in place. A system that will give law enforcement a tool to use to determine who is here legally and illegally and what their criminal history may be. It is very unlikely that some one with there criminal history, who this bill is targeting. That is harden criminal activity. That is human trafficking, sex crime, drug related crimes, gang related crimes. Its very unlikely that some one in that category is gonna take the time to, and worry about having a legal restricted driving permit and subject themselves to a criminal background check. The only part of this bill the tenth part of this bill. Puts in place a system or procedure by which the law enforcement can confiscate a car or vehicle that is being driven by someone. Whether there legally or illegally present in the state, who is driving without a restricted permit or driving with a license that is been revoked do to DWIs, DUIs things of that nature who we intend to be off the road in the first place. It also has a provision for the confiscation of a car, if an individual is driving with there insurance lapse and the forfeiture of the car for sale. There is provision to let an individual reclaim their car if they comeback with proof of insurance. So we have looked at this bill with great length, looked at every provision we fell is a very balance bill. It must be because people across the bill support it but don't like it. I commend the bill to, Mr. chairman we are prepared to answer questions from the comity. At the appropriate time. As a member of the comity, I like to be recognized to make a motion for favorable report on the PCS and favorable to the original. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Representative Stam. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Yes I see the policy parts of the bill, and the appropriation effects. I'm looking for the. Were is the finance part of this bill. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. There is a fee in the bill of the drivers license. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Is it a different fee or just applies to a new class of people. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. A new issue of a license. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. What section is that. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. That be section, I believe that be section nine representative Stam and we live the determination of he amount of the fee, to the secretary of the department of transportation, to the DMV because they are going to be the issuing party behind this. This is design to be a one stop shop here. They do the finger printing they do the background checks the whole thing. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Representative Jones is you give me just a minute. I'll recognize you. For those of you who just come in at 9:45 we will be taking a vote on this bill. I have 14 people from outside the comity that have sign up to speak. I ask that you respect the opportunity to preach one, to be heard. Representative Jones you recognize. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Thank you Mr. chairman, thank you representative Warren. This is a question that you may wanna the staff to answered I don't know. On page 14 line 47. As the are you explain that the applicant has to be a resident of NC of at least year. Prior to April first 2014. what is the penalty if they produce a fraudulent document. In making that determination. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. That would be a class one felony, and I felony. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Follow up. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Follow up. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. And I am not an attorney but, and this is were the staff might be helpful, what is the penalty. For a class I felony. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. I will defer to staff on that [SPEAKER CHANGES]. the maximum, for obviously there is a

range, depending on how many prior convictions you have, but the presumptive range that would reflect the maximum would be anywhere between 8 to 10 months, with a maximum of 19 to 21 months. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. One more follow up, Mr. Chair? [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Follow up. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. What would be the penalty for a Class H felony? [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Give me one second I can let you know. Class H is one step about the Class I, so a Class H with the fewest prior convictions, the presumptive range is 5 to 6 months as your minimum. If you have the most prior convictions then your minimum would be 16 to 20 months. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Representative Samuelson. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members. I have two questions. One dependent on what the answer to the first one is. I'm still trying to make sure I understand what happens if someone is here illegally and does not try to get one of these cards? [SPEAKER CHANGES]. All the other provisions of the bill are applicable to them. There is no financial penalty or anything of that nature. They would be in our state illegally without any background information on them, and my assumption, Representative Samuelson, is that we would start deportation. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. OK. Follow up? [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Follow up. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. On that same point that Representative Bert, Jones brought up. I'm having name issues this week. If the applicant has to have been here for a year prior to April 1, 2013, let's say that we're having this Committee meeting 4 years from now, what about people who may have come to this state because the Federal Government is slow doing whatever they're doing or not, and they were not here the year before April 1, 2013? Would they still be ineligible to get one of these? [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Well, you're asking me to answer a hypothetical situation, and right now, what we're experiencing at the Federal level is the gang of 8 in their throws and they're trying to push Senate Bill 744. It may be a moot point is what I'm saying, that far down the line I'd hate to project out on that. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Follow up? [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Follow up. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. So, in essence, this date is here for now given the current circumstance. Your assumption would be if we needed for some reason to change that legislation later, we would? [SPEAKER CHANGES]. That date is also there, Representative Samuelson, to help assist in any influx of folks coming to the state specifically for a restricted driver's permit. And because of the nature of the restricted permit, I doubt that it's much of a draw anyway. This isn't like we can drive down from New Jersey like we experienced 10 years ago and get a permit, or get a driver's license and drive back out. You have to prove you've been here, you have to subject yourself to a criminal background check. This is very restrictive. In comparing this bill, and this provision of the bill to the way this has been done in Illinois, the way it's being, and has been done since 2005 in Utah, this is a very restrictive program. Utah's been doing special driving privileges like this since 2005, and it wasn't until 2011 that they passed a bill to require fingerprints. We are years ahead of this, this is a very restricted measure for public safety, to make sure these folks are on the road knowing how to drive, what the rules of the road are, and that they are insured. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Representative Starnes. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Thank you. Let me address my questions to staff, and to understand the changes in the law I need to understand the current law. Currently, if a person is in this state driving, if they're in the state illegally and they are caught for driving under the influence, can they be prosecuted for DWI under the laws of North Carolina? [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Yes. Under criminal law it doesn't matter that they're illegal and they would be subject to punishment for the crime they committed while they were here. They could be incarcerated just like anyone who commits a crime in North Carolina. If somebody comes in and commits murder, then North Carolina's got jurisdiction to prosecute that person for murder, or DUI. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. OK. So, follow up then. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Follow up. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. So, I

under this proposed law what changes they can still be charged with DWI and manslaughter or any thing else that happens while they operate a motor vehicle. They would just be subject to other DMV violations. [SPEAKER CHANGES]Right, and the other item I was going to mention is that they would have to reimburse the state for their incarcerations cost. But depending on the offense, for example there's a provision in here that would provide for the seizure of the vehicle if it was one of the offenses listed in that section. There's a couple of different provisions that would get to your question. I'm not sure which provision you want more information about. [SPEAKER CHANGES]Alright, well let's say if a person is in state illegally, and they're driving without a valid driver's license and they're driving drunk, and they hit another car and they cause the death of another person. Under the current law they could be charged with DWI and vehicular homicide. Under this current law they would still be charged with those same offenses and forfeit their vehicle. Is that the major change? [SPEAKER CHANGES]The forfeiture provision applies if a person is driving without insurance, or they're driving without a license or one of these restricted permits. [SPEAKER CHANGES]Representative Starnes. [SPEAKER CHANGES]If I may, it would be the forfeiture of the vehicle would be one of the additional contingencies, and also the costs of incarceration would apply. [SPEAKER CHANGES]Representative Luebke. [SPEAKER CHANGES]Thank you Mr. Chairman. First of all, I'd just ask something in case we committee members are in discussion, can we, and I heard the Chair's decision to vote at 9:45, and I respect that. Can we just listen to a couple of people on both sides rather than listening to all 14? That's just a suggestion. [SPEAKER CHANGES]Well, I was a little concern I would have to cut you off at 9:10, to give him a chance anyway. [SPEAKER CHANGES]Right, well exactly, so I'd like more time as a Vice-Chair of the committee, if I might. Thank you. I want to first thank Representative Moore, because obviously you did a whole lot of research on this issue and I appreciate how much you've worked on it. It really shows in the bill, and I appreciate it. I wanted to follow up, first on Representative Stam's question on fiscal impact, and I wondered if staff could point me to the fiscal impact. In other words, what makes this different from when you and I go to DMV to get a renewal, I guess, on our license, what makes this different? Or we were just moving to the state and getting our license for the first time, can staff explain that, just that little piece. [SPEAKER CHANGES]Well Representative Luebke, I'll give it a try, and if Rodney wants to follow up he can. As was mentioned earlier, the restricted permit piece is in section 9C of the bill, and it does allow, as Representative Warren said, it gives the Secretary of Transportation the authority to set the fee, so we don't know what that fee is going to be, but it can't be any lower than the actual cost of processing the application, which may include the cost of the criminal background check. And then, unlike a drivers license which, I think, is an 8 year renewal, this would have to be renewed every year, and the cost of renewal is $25. [SPEAKER CHANGES]Okay, and just quickly on that, $4 I saw on the bill, it was $4 for license A, license B, License C. [SPEAKER CHANGES]That's the existing law there, Representative. [SPEAKER CHANGES]Are you just saying that. [SPEAKER CHANGES]Yes, sir. [SPEAKER CHANGES]Thank you, Mr. Chairman, just to follow up. Representative Warren, I think my concerns, I want to summarize it, My concerns are not about people who are making violations, or who are engaged in violations of the law, just again, as you and I might. so, the reference to driving DUI, the reference to reckless driving, etcetera, those are not my questions at all. I understand that other members have those concerns. But mine are about people who are here, they're undocumented, they don't have papers, we could have a long debate about why the Federal Immigration Bill is wrong and restricts immigration.

is from Mexico which is why people have come here because employers have asked them to come and work in various positions and we all know that I hope, that people are here because North Carolina employers ask them to come. That's the first thing. Now my question is really this. What assurances does a person who's undocumented have in terms of protecting him or her if he/she has this license that you're talking about and then is stopped because the officer thinks well this person looks to me like s/he is not here with papers, with a green card or the doc of legal presence, etc. What happens there in terms of my protections because I've got one of the license plates that's a key part of your bill? Drivers license, excuse me. [SPEAKER CHANGES] I was reminded it's a permit. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Permit. Thank you. But you have the permit, now what.. [SPEAKER CHANGES] To answer your question, we get down there into one of the issues that has somewhat concerned us at this end of the bill too and it is how do you protect an individual from let's say a rogue individual who's maybe just looking for folks who appear to be illegal. You can't stop, according to the provisions of the bill and particularly I think it's Section 5 on the one that's referred to as the Arizona, individuals can't be stopped just because they "look" like they might be here illegally which is one of the points I wanted to make earlier which is such a large percentage, a high percentage of folks came here from a variety of countries on legal visas, work visas and I don't know how you look at somebody and determine that they look like they're here illegally when they could be from India, they could be here from England, they could be from anyplace else and look the same as you or I. As far as protections go the intent behind the drivers permit is to allow law enforcement to stop an individual and without having to go through all the steps and procedures to determine that person's legal status will identify that right away. Typically what's happening now and again [SPEAKER CHANGES] May I interject just to the question? [SPEAKER CHANGES] Sure. [SPEAKER CHANGES] How would you determine legal status? The person has the drivers permit [SPEAKER CHANGES] Yes sir. [SPEAKER CHANGES] How does that make the person here legal? How does that make it a document? [SPEAKER CHANGES] It doesn't sir. The driving permit clearly states that they have no legal presence, no legal status, so that is the proof the law officer needs there. The time consumption on law enforcement would be saved dramatically because as soon as that is produced they know the individual is here illegally. And what I've found in research, this has been going on since July of last year what we're finding is that across the board knowing that ICE is not giving us assistance in removing people who are here illegally unless they're engaged in some of the criminal activity that this bill seeks to address typically what's happening in a lot of cases they're getting a ticket and they're sent on their way. This will expedite the process. Law enforcement will know who they're dealing with. As one of the sheriff's told me I can arrest somebody today or stop somebody in my county, I'm not going to mention the county, I can stop him today and get a name, two days later one of my officers stops him and the same individual gets a different name and this will establish identity which is a big help for law enforcement. So typically, I guess bottom line, to answer your question is that while there is no guaranteed protection someone stopped with one of these would not get treated in any special way because they may be involved in some other type of criminal activity. The thought across the board is that once that permit is produced a citation can be given for whatever the traffic offense or whatever the reason they were detained for and they're sent on their way. And again one of the provisions that relates to is trying to free up law enforcement and our human and financial resources to address more nefarious criminal activity. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Then to follow up. How can, I think you know, Alamance County is being investigated by the Department of Justice. It's a very very complicated situation. In Wake County there's plenty of evidence that people are being stopped and 287G's being used against them for sending on their way to deportation. How is this different? How is this going to save these people from these deportations which we know the Obama Administration is supposed to not be doing but we also know it has been doing. How is a person with a permit

saved from that potential deportation road. And how is different from, say, a man driving and his wife is next to him? is there any different in the treatment of him, the driver with the permit, and his spouse, who does not have that because she doesn't drive. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Well the spouse first off has the opportunity to get the restricted identification card. We have that in here for non drivers. So that kind of eliminates that problem. You pointed out something, I didn't want to mention county names, but it goes back to something I was saying. We can't- we can pass a law and the intent of the law be there, but we can't control individual behavior out in the field. And it not only applies to this bill, but every bill that we pass up here, whether it's about voting, or whether it's about entitlement programs, whether it's about a restricted driver's permit. There will always be some individual action that goes against the grain of the intent of the law, so in the intent of this part of the law is that an individual come forth, submit that they're not wanted for anything other than perhaps coming into the country illegally, than understanding that we're not getting assistance from the federal government to deport these and considering our financial condition as a state, and the reduction of funds for law enforcement, it's our position that this will help deter incarcerating folks meaninglessly at a cost of $45-50 a day to the county or to the department when all they've got to do is write them a ticket and send them on their way because now they know who they are, and where they are. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Rep. Luebke- [SPEAKER CHANGES] One more follow up [SPEAKER CHANGES] ?? [SPEAKER CHANGES] I'm going to interrupt you and let the outside speak. This bill does not- while I'm sure it's going to affect on how some people vote on how it affects the passengers, the bill itself does not address the passengers. That's their responsibility to get their own permit. [SPEAKER CHANGES] If i may, ?? [SPEAKER CHANGES] So I have 14 people from outside and I will recognize them, and we're going to start with that. If they get through before 9:45, we'll come back to the committee. Thank you very much. And I ask that the outside will be giving you, since I had said 3 minutes and we've got so many requests, I'm going to stick with 2 minutes, you'll be given a warning. At 3 minutes, you will be cut off if you can't finish it up. And we will start with the honorable Harry Payne. You will identify yourself and all of that. Most of us know who you are. Identify yourself, who you represent, and you'll be given 2 minutes. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Yes, Mr. Chairman. Can y'all hear me? is this working? Good, thank you. I'm Harry Payne with the North Carolina Justice Center, and we applaud the sponsor's desire and what seems to be a common theme about granting these people a pathway to the highway. We think it admirable, needed to preserve- we want people riding down the highway who've been approved and tested and driving. And who have insurance. But it does not change the fact that this bill goes well beyond that. It makes choices as to who is good and who is bad. And this is new in our state. Only driving related issues can take your driving privileges away. Murders, pedophiles, rapists, thieves, are eligible in this state to get a driving license. But simply having been born somewhere else is not a fair measure. It excludes people who cannot get their birth certificate from their whole country. It excludes people who have lived off of the matricular consular for years and that has been their ID, all of a sudden it's out the window. Our experience with ?? immigrants is that they have underground for so long, and have consciously tried not to have an apartment lease or a monthly cable bill, because it will get them in trouble. And so that whole world is excluded, and that does not mean they're good or bad people for making decisions that have nothing to do with ID and nothing to do with the ability to drive. The cost of this bill is extraordinary, you have to prepay 1 year of insurance. Certainly it's not a crime to be poor and to thus be treated like a hardened criminal. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Thank you, Rep. Payne. And based on the way you've signed up and indicated on

29999, non ms-Mexico, being Mr. Zhang jian Li F, social issue too complex to morningstar lead in the frozen North Carolina association chief of police association supports this bill because of this life is full of four for a while, several of the provisions that we believe well as public safety when a key components of crucial factor missile of four for some older than you the person we have in Russian with order suspect that some witness or otherwise of all personal Officer Marshall only or she is talking with some investigation deferral complete and accurate this other records system as appropriate factual information as the basis of so many were functions and results in the process four officers have to expend considerable time to refine the identity of the person does not percent dollar contribution is an accepted part of our society to carry identification is the goal by regulation and that defecation home must be readily acknowledges the valid from commercial card transactions surrounding four by Olivia Cole and many other aspects Gallegos occasion to place a component of the transaction is so common that many who seek to avoid the consequences of their actions will obtain fraudulent identification or Carly illegal possession are manufactured all false or fraudulent education is only misdemeanor and may assist the person aboard the consequences for much more serious crimes Foster's face identification challenges routinely with your actual people are in the country illegally aside from not being able to accurately , heavily from determine if a person is wanted for committing a crime officers cannot accurately identify witnesses are victims which to Gracie quality of the best additions to the campers are building a case of victim cannot the leash on the second only to reseller FI channel to make matters worse case of a car were suspect was detained in charge Brad space of a fraudulent identification documents only to the release was pretrial conditions are not met and befriended fails to return to court as you may be where the problem of uninsured motorist our roads and L increasing problem in pressure will move all the wreck so what is for these reasons and the positive benefits to law enforcement of support this bill bacon, he was Jessica Lange I could play minutes after a jackhammer kitchen or through a justice on anything from the C for talking about all the necessary public CD, (SPEAKER CHANGES) Levens like a good idea to make sure people are just CPI to learn about a year in the competition this bill because I think it does so much more in there so many questions about how the 20 implemented that one release all are, after the conversation that, between the people be able to avoid a scale of able to prove that they went here well enough to be able to get the belt to take get a permit to boycott the companies in the whole process in order to submit all of this information to the government's underlying the basic questions about how this is going by(SPEAKER CHANGES) Nancy L decosta that permit has not been established at COMDEX, the lack of training that any necessary for the DMV to be able to come actually learn how to process and whether they think someone is legally, has passed by the AC SMS eight for a year that have to learn how outlook for oil documents and if I’m what they think is has a valid, MDL form of a friend got so many have to look at things for the families and everyone has something left and before he call first 20 13th, is a steady live training DMV offices are in Allied not set out to automatically allow people in other languages to take the exams combat possibility just a tremendous burden IBM PC from , the T flag field antenna by people come back to sea Lions and seals and all I do think that's a good ID at many about letting people know I felt Anderson County last thing about hundred people felt like they would not be interested in applying for this permits because they have no trust they don't have that when your insurance Adobe after K at 5:00 PM, just Anacostia NHL think the dow be able to prove the case may be justified if not one of the one at the Dalles people ask if im terrific example, Collis where the other people are its conduct a black people on the situation to do not have taken for the third inning to be able to get the Fuhrman taking the stand, and the extra than Mr. James Johnson skew. The morning -3 other men have complained can ??...........

I'm a farmer in that county and have been a farmer since I married my husband 31 years ago tomorrow we have raised or family on this farm and we love our community. Our farm is 5200 acres of grain and 2 hog facilities we love the way of life and we love where we are, however the immigration system is broken that stabilizes our community So I am asking you today to vote in favor of this bill. I know what it is like to live in a community that is rich in agriculture and very dependent on seasonal labor and I have seen the population of our community change as the seasonal workers have become residents. We have issues that are problems that have been around for a long time. Somehow we as a state to to figure out a way to address our immigration problems so that our communities will become stronger and . On our farm our present workforce is 67% hispanic and has been as high as 90%. This statistic is reflected all across the state and we have to have a system in place so our law enforcement can support our communities and keep them safe. all of our citizens even our immigrant people need to have some sort of security and house bill 786 will give them that security to keep the roads and their communities safe. My brother is also a detective in the Goldberg cities police and he deals daily with trying to identify these citizens. I believe that documenting the transient population will stabilize their lives our communities and our industries giving everyone security and confidence we all have a community that is providing a valuable service for businesses like mine that would fail without them but I believe we should be proactive and address this issue without waiting on the federal government as a farmer and an employer and a citizen I urge you to vote in favor of house bill 786. Thank You. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Thank you. Mr James Johnston and Mr. James HIcks will be up next and Mr. Bob Cotton. Good morning my name is James Johnston, I'm with NC Fire North Carolinians fr immigration reform and enforcement I am here on behalf of our six thousand plus members and our thirty to forty thousand North Carolina Residents that we are in daily contact with through social media whoa are actually in favor of the enforcement measures of this bill we are opposed to section 9 the issuance of licenses to illegal aliens some of the unintended consequences that go along with this like issuing permits and these to illegal aliens include. A report by CIAS says issuing licences and I.D.'s to illegal aliens high levels of identity theft go hand in hand. 8 of the 10 stares with the highest percentage of illegal aliens are among the 10 states that are in the highest rank of identity theft. The FTC put out a report about the cost of I.D. theft. Victims of I.D. theft lose an estimated $10,200.00 per year. Victim estimated the spend and estimated $1200.00 on average and over six hundred hours resolving the problems associated with identity theft. New Mexico is one state that currently issues licenses to illegal aliens. Governor Martinez indicates that it has arrived with widespread fraud They have brought charges against several crime syndicates These were paid to support foreign documents from Poland China México Ecuador Guatemala El Salvador Costa Rica and Uruguay in fact there are currently 11 such cases pending in the New Mexico court system. The latest two that were caught reported and were indicated that the were responding to a new york newspaper advertisement to obtain New mexicos licenses licenses in New mexico there were also advertisements in a post newspaper chicago and a spanish newspaper in and a chinese newspaper in new york New Mexico is known as the place to go for Drivers licenses and ID Cards. I'll be next if we follow through with this policy. So as all of it is being touted as a la enforcement policy it seems that section 9 will only add to the workload of law enforcement and add to the suffering of north carolina citizens it is for this reason that we ask you to reject section 9 of this bill Thank you Mr Johnston Mr Bob ?? and next Good morning my name is Bob ?? I am a member so we are the largest domestic seating manufacturer in america

I became aware of basically this driver's license issue in December when some of our employees were involved in an accident on 3-11 south of high point. They are aliens and they were undocumented. The individual that hit them also did not have a license and did not have a license plate. I drove up about lunch time, got out of the car and became aware of the situation. It was very unfortunate. Fortunately, we had a North Carolina highway patrolman who handled it very well. The employees were transported the the hospital. The individual who caused this accident tried to change his license plate and did not have a driver's license. We are very much in favor of this bill. It does help North Carolina. it will help fair out nefarious individuals. This is a law enforcement issue that needs to be dealt with for the safety of our roads, our citizens and our state. Thank you very much. [speaker changes] Thank you. Mr. ??. Am I pronouncing that right? And next would be Mr. Lou Ebert. [speaker changes] Yes, my name is ?? ??. I'm with ambassador ??, my company. I've been losing work to illegals. I was a custom supervisor for a company and I paid top guy of every company, he would go out the the parking lot, pay those people, pay his people cash up underneath the table. You keep em around here, they're taking my jobs. If they stay here with driver's licenses, you're gonna gut e-verify. I need that enforced and the construction trade, they're taking over. They're pushing all of the American citizens out of the construction trade where they can't make a living and that's my situation here. I might be losing my home because I can't get enough jobs. I gotta give a free estimate to a general contractor. They don't give an estimate, so I'm asking you to oppose this on the driver's license and enforce e-verify. Thank you. [speaker changes] Thank you. Mr. Lou Ebert and next, Mrs. Kate Wilmer. [speaker changes] Good morning Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. My name is Lou Ebert, I'm president and CEO of the North Carolina chamber of Commerce. The chamber serves as the organized voice of the business community in our state representing more than 35,000 members and employing over a million North Carolinians. I want to thank this committee for attention to this important issue that's critical to many employers in our state. The North Carolina chamber applauds House Bill 786, the reclaim act and is encouraged by the comprehensive approach it brings to immigration reform in our state. House Bill 786 would take important steps, we believe, to increase penalties for false identification documents. It would limit the types of identification available for determining a person's identity. It would make improvements to the current e-verify statutes for seasonal workers. It would provide the issuance of a restrictive driver's permit for the identification card of persons not lawfully in the US. The chamber supports the efforts of Representative Harry Warren and House leadership to promote legislation that we feel would enact statewide middle of the road immigration reforms that ensure a readily available workforce while addressing the immigration legality issues. We stand in support of this legislation and look forward to passing this. Thank you. [speaker changes] Thank you. Mrs. Kate Wilmer and next, Mr. Ron Cox. [speaker changes] Hello and Thank you to the committee. My name is Kate Wilmer-?? . I'm with the North Carolina Justice Center. The North Carolina Justice Center advocates for low income people across North Carolina and this bill is a bad bill for taxpayers and it's a bad bill for low income people across North Carolina. We believe the costs outlined in the fiscal note here are grossly understating the cost of this bill. Almost every section of this bill is gonna carry increased cost. Increased incarceration time. The cost of administering the pay your way in prison provision which may exceed the actual revenue we take in from low income prisoners and ex prisoners. Increased arrests. Increased jail time when people can't bond out under section 3. The phenomenal cost of impounding every vehicle, not just for undocumented --

Immigrants but for any person in this state stopped driving without insurance. If your insurance lapses for two weeks, your car will be impounded. It doesn't say it may be impounded, it says it shall be impounded. So the cost under this bill are going be exceptional we have a lot of challenges in this state. We need to pay for educating our children. We need to pay for providing health care and basic services to our citizens. Paying for our roads and air and water quality. We don't need need to be paying for this unnecessary provisions. Kentucky considered a similar bill and found that the annual cost would be 40 million dollars. The legislature rejected this bill because of the cost. We ask you to reject this bill because of the unnecessary cost. The unnecessary impact on low income immigrants but also on low income citizens. Section five of the bill is going to affect people who are here as citizens and lawfully present. Every body is going to be required to show their papers to law enforcement, if law enforcement believes that they might not be here lawfully. And they can be detain if they can not show those papers. So we ask the comity to reject this bill we believe that is going to be very expensive, and is unnecessary for our state. Thank you. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Thank you. Mr. Roen Cox and next Mr. Danny Moor. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. my name is Roan Cox, Jesus ministries. I think that in all bills we would like to have the perfect bill. I don't think there is a perfect one. I like to see both sides seem to be upset with the bill. Because it seems to be a little bit more fair and down the middle. We can state thing from all around. Form people taking polls or taking studies to shore up one side or the other the basic thing is what do we have now. Now and officer stops someone. There is no ID. He has to stop taken downtown, finger print them tie up the states time, tie up there time and cost us money. That time could be better spent solving or preventing other crimes. The system trough A-verify we want E-verify we want to know who is here. But jet this does help the state maintain some of the Latino workers or some of the immigrant workers not only Latino. And that they can hopefully seek employment. It will shield there employer a little bit but jet it wont protect them against heiring undocumented. It is not fair to just sit there and try to destroy the bill to protect one side or the other. We appreciate the representatives work. We think there is a time and a moment for North Carolina to step forward, and to move into the future. And we feel is better for law enforcement. For every one. Thank you [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Thank you. Ms Dana Moor next Mr. Petter Daniel [SPEAKER CHANGES]. hello and thank you to the community. I'm Danny Moor form the North Carolina justice center. We continue to oppose this bill even though we appreciate the hard work that legislator have put into it, to try to make it better. We find that the bill still to punitive to both immigrants and US citizens. And too costly for individual families and for North Carolina as a whole. I wanna tell you about some real North Carolina people who will be affected by this bill. I'm a US citizens I grew up in Edgecombe county and now I live in Ryley. My neighbors across the street are the Rodriguez family. They been US citizens for years. So has my friend Jubencio who live in Pitt county and my friend who is a grandfather Enrique form Mexico city he now lives in Hillsboro. And his daughter Rebeca was my co-worker a few year ago. This are Mexican American families more broadly this are Latino families. And more broadly this are Latino families who are US citizens. They are a part of North Carolina just like I am. All have been US citizens for years. With the Arizona show me your papers provisions of this bill. Will they have to carry not only ID but proof of their citizenship like a pass port, or birth certificate. When walking the dog or pushing their children in a stroller or when shopping for bread and milk. Will I with my skin color, my accent be asked the same, when I go to the grocery store or when I'm on the side walk. I'm also concerned about the cost and many immigrant families will not be able to afford to comply with the permit, or ID provision of this law. I have a steady job and I try my best to pay my bills on time. But I would struggle mightily to be able to afford 12 months of insurance in advance. I have a clean driving record and I been paying that insurance for a lot much higher. For those who are young and those who are not US citizens who can show that long standing driving record. The bill is two costly and two punitive for North Carolina. Thank you. [SPEAKER CHANGES]. Thank you. Mr. Petter Daniel and next Mr. Ron Murrer

Mr. Chairman, committee, thank you for the opportunity to meet before the committee today. My name is Peter Daniel. I am here today as my capacity as an officer of the North Carolina Farm Bureau Board of Directors. We appreciate the willingness of the bill's sponsors to reach out to many groups in order to improve this bill. While not perfect, we stand here today in strong support. Our guest worker system is severely broken. It cannot be fixed here at the State level without tremendous, unintended, economic consequences. We saw this take place in Georgia, Alabama, and Arizona. No one should want to go there. The bill recognizes these facts, and is a bold attempt to bridge the gap between Federal and State policy. On behalf of the hundreds of thousands of farms, and rural families who live in this broken immigration system every day, we see this bill as providing law enforcement the tools they need to legally remove the criminal elements from our state. The bill would create the needed structure to ensure that every driver on North Carolina's roads is taught our law and regulations, and that the vehicle that is driven is insured. The question before this body today: Will this body provide law enforcement the tools they need to provide safer communities, and safer roads, until congress acts and fixes the situation. We urge your support of the bill, and thank you very much. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Thank you. Mr. Ron Woodard, and then Mr. Jim Hobbs. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Good morning, I'm Ron Woodard, Director of North Carolina Listen. H-786 has some good points however, part 8 section F through H makes null-and-void earlier legislation H-36 which became law in 2001, that was supposed to protect new jobs for citizens, not illegal aliens. H-786 as written, helps illegal hold jobs. Remember, 85% of illegals don't work on farms. Isn't job number 1 in our State to make sure unemployed citizens get jobs? Illegal immigration is costing our State over 1.1 billion net each year. We're paying social services and public benefits to illegals and their dependents, and also providing dual social services and unemployment compensation to citizens who's jobs illegals have taken. Illegal cheap labor is very expensive to our State budget. Every dollar going to illegals and their dependents is one less dollar going to our own poor. Eight members of this committee co-sponsored H-36, the e-Verify bill in 2011 to make sure new jobs went to citizens, not illegals. Why would you undo this? 40% of the co-sponsors of 786 actually co-sponsored the H-36 bill. What are you afraid of, e-Verify is going to work? We have nearly 9% unemployment in North Carolina, so don't we want to make sure citizens get jobs? The legislative has cut unemployment benefits, not added the poor to Medicaid and cut earned income tax credits to encourage citizens to work. As H-786 is written, you're turning on these very citizens when they need to look for work by helping illegals get jobs and then drive to the job legally. If we have time to deny welfare to citizens, don't we have time also to deny jobs to illegal aliens? Part 9 of this bill gives impoundment - part 10 of the bill gives impoundment of vehicles, and that fixes the problem of people driving illegally. The sheriff's association is not in favor of part 9 of this bill, and this part of the bill is also in violation of Federal law. We did this eight years ago, and we had mass illegal immigration because of it. We'd be the only State in the South East and only one of five other States to do this, and New Mexico says they wish they hadn't. So in conclusion, I ask you to - for part 8 and part 9 remove that, or else I urge you to vote against the bill. Thank you. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Thank you. Mr. Jim Hobbs, and then Miss. Medea Mendez. [SPEAKER CHANGES] Good morning Mr. Chairman, members. My name is Jim Hobbs. I represent the Hospitality Alliance of North Carolina, ?? which is part of the travel and tourism industry, and work with other travel and tourism groups across the State on various issues. I want to thank the sponsors for bringing private sector members from our organization, we have two individuals who met four different times with Representative Warren, and other bill sponsors to discuss the issues that are on the table. Well, we all learned there is no perfect solution to some very complex issues.

Too sure if the food supports this legislation 32, to support before that legislation that would really 52722 altering the offering which to address human relations from the problems that we have fewer North Carolina actual support roof, refusing this film lingo four doubt that we can fight a small fee of two addressing some goodwill problems for employers for law enforcement to let the two men are fewer systems weird for support of the spill thank you to get this behind them, this rollicking amenities and too many with the morning nine 1st of all our land bank of Miami smile again and is undefeated there a pair of jeans and ECM Allen thank all of you sponsors from the spill high that we survived actual stain, the press and determination by the Stanley I needed by the people I do my gal of the annual model at the we have a serious problem no, (SPEAKER CHANGES) I did not leave the ball away from the prominent lawyer said only take care of the problem there is no other way when we have, we have to take care of the problem by the Stanley cup drivers undocumented migrants are no other old state highway should know from my DB asking for you to pay attention to DC two and a banking today for the conversation that we had Interbank we cannot turn AK its SA that they need when sabot way that bad that they be undocumented goalie bass not happy we need to take care of the problem the other day I was caught by a blank out of town that the nation the name of the hotel where CPB board led the fight had been expanded they'll fill out there buying nine the issue as CNN and the channel five that's not a check this out, there was very many Lebanese descent has helped me I suspect, make the peel, if the money to help you laugh at the high that got me to help heal that's not be able to a poll that goal accuracy off from my believer that tension two back two any strike aimed at finding status of that we all like to get on budget and a sign that panels the rate of people find many people, by any of the dead people attach why people like people packed the two men marched today fall like to do it and -take a lesson, and much of the destruction as for the question of nine red-and-a motion to the PCs of them, the national government will be taking a look back and is chairman of the fifth and pike, DEF any question them about making that this is a difficult to fall issue that was taken up and I appreciate the fact it is now being discussed them with that and see a summit dynamics that got become apparent when we try to deal with it openly and honestly felt that the question really is owed two I guess represent one of them has been with the shares aspect of it (SPEAKER CHANGES) the driver's insurance level would begin with the stamp and that the question is about the author of many insurers to acquire the best months of them is required for the North Carolina, as well that we require them that one year's worth of insurance money in advance and they did it for calls within the primaries and there were some policy to holiday gift to the fact that there's a difference 26 assists and citizenship status and the ability to speak up and leave , but the o'clock in the future flights and fares from the recent months of the year trustee of the cost issue of ensure strict eight there are policies set the younger Mitchell and then the 900 main policy for six months while seated liability policies they can get this makes them because I can read them from status basically if people are you really like the money should have the policy and then, stopping on another two and continue to try that sure it's good to them, to address as further me that that happens to the other provision of the bill is it OK, because I would be confiscated and then they could not sell if the insurance is reinstated and provide ??..................

If tough enough stuff to that of this edition-the data that has so we had good James Lilley add the pork closely as high as seven in the process but so are best list and manages the plan is the bank's money and buy the same that had so much about 90 need a set of data that says (SPEAKER CHANGES) the batch but rather than those that that M at that than to actually do let members have any input that that's better than that and too bad that put them back to the maximum at about the present and then move and 2:00 PM from a bad that they enlist that would benefit most bank and that end of this bank and go back and that against the law that said that in the strategists in terms of the procedure we've got one and had to be a good 10/2-length and unhappy that sun's members to make the bill Cartwright of the lot today I am not then that they knew that of a 10,000,000 black book that Bennett amendment that would give that this and let them members have as much input is aiming if you think you could have a mission that banks that that is because they could have planted a ms a big mess that that made that that is, that figure that one that said that that those at the paper that had them from that again and have a chance that the end of the date and the nonmembers would be a good mood of the ads that this time that the puppy then the day that vitamin a good estimate, but good again led the law that said that 5:42 CNN's Linda welcome you back to this committee MMC back and help them that you hear from taking back-off just said is that the good that goes by the content of that stuff from a man who said should cover for men, ages seven that is making this a two and you might also be reminded that the GM job for most of the weather also would let them for that , if he led them to suppress 11 matter that put the payback conditions end of the attitude that if I run the fast that the plan but that's the sad fact and this is that the PCs 7:00 PM; (SPEAKER CHANGES )lows that we have opposed to the success of a defense that hope is that you say that that's a good day, but the plan has said that even the cuts this as a defense , and some the thanking members from Friday that the PCs and just when Alps from basically Frey said every week and seven from a man that you still may be handy although floating out there is a female's I get the stuff that are all information summit Chevron to the bill on that ragged and from keating highlights as much as possible and we have a lot of folks who want to speak at least one Galt all the main overview Stasi some of the changes for some of the hearty review the first awards from 70 to 2 with that first run the Exe thank you to spend 8 April ninth player for me to work with Nike sponsors and I think you'll see from the revisions that we had actually been working together can say yes, 1:50 cargo the fed to his district recently and the downloads of the 5000 these guys trying to come to make this a vessel possible so that when the M many get into it from bodies see that got the staff to back this is a bill that would provide ??.....