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House | June 2, 2015 | Committee Room | Education, K-12

Full MP3 Audio File

Morning we are going to go ahead and get started the finance meeting is still going on so we have a few members that are down there hopefully we will not have that much discussion on the bill today K12 as they are with the bill that's in finance. Pardon.  OK so we will have a few more filter in Rep. Johnson finance just ended, today our sergeant arms or Charles Good ones, Roy Cook and Dean Mashbon we'll see pages we have Mary Hope Hadley from Wein county sponsored by representative badcok Daniel Crougar from Cumberland sponsored by Representative Soucar Emily from [xx] sponsored by speaker Muller, Ann Makini from [xx] sponsored by Representative [xx] and Jack Michel from Chadam also sponsored by speaker Muller.  Thank you Pagers for your work today we'll go ahead and move into gender, the first one that we've senate bill 315, school playground available to the public. Senator Pay thank you Mr. Chairman and good morning members of the committee, it's a delight to be over here with house buddies. Senate bill 315 really opens up school playground for recreational use whose after normal school hours, all the provisions are in here to protect the school board from liability and and the individual board of education member also will be protected from any liability and it makes it permissive for the school boards to open up the playgrounds The taxpayers paid for those playgrounds and all of that equipment and I think it should be open to kids and families for recreational purposes after school hours and at the weekend, and so I present this bill to you and be glad to answer any question, and would appreciate your support. Thank you senator Pay Representative John's. Thank you Mr. Chair I think this is a good bill would be please to make a motion at the appropriate time. Representative Farmer Butterfield. You beat me to it. Representative Richardson. Thank you Mr. Chair. my question is regarding the statement our principle teacher and janitors shall be held responsible for safe keeping of the building the school session and all breakage and damage, the repair by those responsible for same. And this is during the school hour but on the weekends, and if they are there unlike Saturday and Sunday or holidays then how would you control for that because and who would be be responsible. We're saying the school board would have to be responsible for all repairs that have, or damaged that is done by this group when they're using these facilities. Mr. Chair. Go ahead. I have not contemplated that people who are going to use this property would be destructive in nature if so I will thank the Board of Education that they will be free to close the the property back up to those individuals I would assume that people who want to use the play ground triggered in the manner that they were triggered during the school hours and suddenly not in the [xx] equipment lab I will follow up I was really saying it is bill was size breakage and damage. So, obviously someone must have thought about some breakage and damage because it's in the bill, and so, this is going to be an expense to the school board to, or would there be any kind of fees that the agency would've to pay in order to cover those costs the bill only changes, is changed where the sub paragraph D comes in on line in aid of the bill. That's the only change to the existing bill, to the existing section of the law thank you Chairman Horton[sp?] Thank you Mr. Chairman, Senator Pete[sp?] welcome frankly I think Blatter must probably

assume that playgrounds and all the outdoor we are open as it is. So, my question on liability follow up on Representative Richardson liability, do you know presently as a signage or something out there to use at your own risk or the school is responsible or how does that all work legally to ensure that somebody who falls off a swing doesn't turn around, and sue the school all because they say the swing wasn't safe. Well, as I understand the proposed bill, the boards of education can individually work up their own rules and procedures for the use of the playground once it's open to the members of the public. Representative Polly, I'm sorry the just follow up probably like that stuff, what's the law on that as far as as liability for people using school property they're probably trespassing. The current law says, that local boards turned up rules and regulations which they may enter under agreements, permitting non-school groups to use the property, and that no liability would attach to the local board for doing so, it's like if you come in and you do something that you shouldn't do then, that's not their responsibility even though they allowed you to, they did allow you to use it but it's your responsibility and to use it properly. And specifically, there is language in those situations where they enter those agreements if they are not responsible. This would extend into saying that they may make the outdoor property available to the public to any terms and conditions that each board deems appropriate so it's not requiring them to do it and again that, if they were to do so then you they can't be sued for it. I mean, we also have issues with sovereign immunity in the State when it comes to school boards and they can only be sued to the extent that they have insurance so all of that would play into a situation that could rise my last follow up Mr. Chairman is, has any of that been tested in court? I don't [xx] playgrounds but the issue of sovereign immunity and local boards comes up quite often thank you A represent of Peekman[sp?] Thank you Mr. Chairman Kuza[sp?] one thing I'd point out it does say may, it does not say shall. I think this is a good bill, my wife was part of the group that started the pioneer football league an athletic leave for home school kids back in the 90's, and they tried to get opportunities trying find fields to play on and try to play in some local school fields and were not allowed to, since that time we're not long ago she helped found the Stallions team in Cabarrus County that my two boys were part of the original team things have changed some sense at times and now there's a school in my district which has changed to a magnate school, they're no longer using their football field. and they're allowed and it stays to use that as their home field and it's working out very well, and so I think this kind of thing is a very good idea, it is a may not a shall, and I'm all in favor of this. Representative Luebke? Thank you Mr. Chairman and with this question I mean no way that's suggesting that debate not continue. Question for staff is, is this identical to the bill that this committee passed few weeks ago?. That is correct Representative Luebke, Representative Rob Bryan's bill passed this committee few weeks ago and the House as well. It's crossed over, Senator Pate's bill just happened to cross over first. Thank you. And this bill also has a serial referral to local government to touch on some of the issues that Chairman Holmes is talking about. Let's see, Representative Dickson. My point has already been made, it's permissive, let's vote. last chance here representative from Bavenfield[sp?] Thank you Mr. Tier[sp?]. Is there not a companion bill on the house side like these bills, seems like I don't remember We've already passed it Okay, thank you go ahead Representative [xx]. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I just want to clear up a point that Rep. Pittman made. This is left up the discretion of the board of education, is that correct? And they would in turn develop policy

and lay that outline to the public Thank you. Representative Jones, just a reminder as refereed local government. Thank you Mr. Chair I move for a favorable report, Senate Bill 315 have their referral to local government. We have the motion on the floor all those in favor say aye, Aye! Any oppose? all right, thank you Senator Pay. Thank you Mr. Chair and members of the committee. The next one we have up is Senate Bill 333, teacher attrition data Senator Suche Senator We are actually going to move to the next bill which is Senate Bill 597 repair [xx] to the A. B. Cs and as Okay Senator Chairman Thank you Mr. Chairman, thank you for hearing this little bill and thank you house members for all your getting cooperation work and as we work together on this [xx] the A. B. Cs. They went out several years ago, we don't use them anymore, we've got different standards of measurement and accountability that's all it does, however there are many other updates and changes we need to do and standards and part of the work on this type of thing is [xx]. But we just wanted to start with the all it does. Representative Glazer. I agree fully with what Senator Tom is doing and it's part of a larger bill Representative Jones did over here and I would move for a favorable report when the time is available. Thank you, any more questions? Appropriate time representative Glazier. Is there any re-referral Mr. Speaker? No sir. I would move for a favorable report for a senate bill 597. Okay, we have the motion on the floor, all in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Who will be handling in on the floor senator. I don't know [xx] I would be, I hope we got the votes that's true he looks great I love that. we've got the one more bill but there's an amendment being offered and the sponsor is reviewing the amendment and I would like to see the amendment also and my co-worker is here too. As chairman Johnson said you can be at ease for a few minutes. They're running copies of the amendment right now so we'll get that to you here in a minute. Yes, Senator [xx] is going to go ahead and talk about the body of the bill while the amendment is being printed. Thank you Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, the reason behind this bill is thus that really well understood principle that the best thing we can have in our classrooms is a highly effective teacher. That's the single best things they can do the education of our children. One of the things that will be able to support that is having better dad as to why teachers are leaving the school daring. Currently one of the challenges is that it says their teacher's has left their school system but it doesn't say any kind of data today lead the profession because they are desatisfied to leave the state? Do you take a teaching position in another LEA? There's a lot of different reasons why. We want to know what's going on so we can better look at how do we attract and retain our best and highly effective teaches in the school system. I'm going to ask staff to go through the ball points of the items that we are going to be collecting now that we won't collect in the past and then a loop of any questions Senate bill 333 would require the annual state board of education report on the teaching profession to include six new items. The first data on the

number of teachers who left the profession without remaining in the field of education and the reasons why the teachers are not remaining in the profession, two the number of teachers who left teaching profession to teach in other states, 3 the number of teachers who left their employment to work in another school in North Carolina including non-public in charter schools 4 the number of teachers who left the classroom position for another type of educational position. Five the number of under staffed schools as identified as low performing school under current law low performing schools are those in which have the failure to meet minimum growth standards as defined by the state board and in majority of students performing below grade levels. Six the number of positions in understaffed subject areas as either defined by the US Department of ED or a subject area that have resulted in a long vacancy of 16 months or more at a particular school in an LEA. Thank you staff and Mr chairman. Representative Gotham thank you Mr chairman and senate I may have misunderstood but did you say questions or this topics would be addition to already other questions that are available. Well this would be additional factors that we're asking for date to be collected on a lot and with the question that are already present there's one that's concern teacher pay low teacher pay? I'm not I understand your question could you repeat that please? Sure I guess one of the reason that we're here there regardless of your political affiliation that we're always talking of teacher pay and that has been the reason why teacher leave North Carolina so, I just wanted to make sure that that was included in the question of teacher pay not been able to provide for a family? Teachers when they leave and they're asked question and they're always given they can self identify as the reason why and that's the answer they'll be able to given it will be collected if that's the reason. Follow up. Follow up. I understand that but why not just have it that's one of the choices have it one of the multiple choice test or however it would be outline already there in present? Could be done, it is not done this with this bill it sound a little bit like a legal question legal aspect into what is being corrected time much of a political follow up followup sorry make it political but I guess really trying to figure out if this is the answer it might surprise you they might surprise all of us beg or may be an As can just do we said the peg actual agents can try to have this many we in life scenario the thing that really good impact the data and that is the [xx] we hear we might one we know that or may be it's really not may it might be more about the oldest school in the leadership, in that school I think that with this something that should be added as well. You know, and I agree we trying to get much information as possible, reason more Generic categories, if we can come up with a thousand different specific question that everyone thought that were offered [xx] for this reasons that reasons, am not sure we could ever really confide that in a workable document if you came up with every possible reason that's a yes or no, did this cause this, did it cause that. I think this is trying to create Workable able database is not exhausting Okay, represent the [xx] Thank you Mr Chairman, your questions aim you did as not the same information was already being correct I've seen reports that list down this type of information. Check the staff, mine is not in walk able format we're trying to take high emotions settings to correct this data so that can be used in analyse that we can make better decision and [xx] teacher transaction and departure from depression and the oppression and that might be able to elaborate what's being done and what changes has occurs right, So right now there is no start direction for certain question to be asked and also about the data. These will direct us specific questions we have been included in our report in Representative Dickson, Thank you Meshack for the question of the bill, we have seen each as got him, in the, hey I would leaned it wasn't [xx] changed if I work in the two stages you left the profession and if I leave the profession because of

low pay, could I not say that as a reason is why I leave the profession in section (a) absolutely good. Representative Glaisha. Thank you Mr. Chairman thank you so, I agree with that you trying to asssumulate this in the bill. I do agree with Representative Copham's point and Representative Dickson's point, I think that subsection A does assume that and there may be plenty of others, but so I assume in the end though there is Representative Copham suggested if we going to use this usable chart it's going to have major sub categories that there's going to be data collected on. And then any other category for the other 100 things that may affect it, but we all know that lack of support or discipline in the schools or lack of parent support and teacher pair[sp?] and teaching work conditions are sort of the top five or six and I'm assuming this gives the State Board the ability to set out their database as they wish for that first one, to include a subcategory specifically of lack of teacher pay. That would be correct? If it would allow that, I think that you might be looking be on the scout for what we are trying to do here. We didn't have workable data and so we are trying to without creating voluminous data come up with some category that help make us make that decisions those are more specific can get further down and they could that I think we can debate all day everyone has have a different opinion as to where this may go I think may all agree that it should go deeper we should have more data on this we can make that decision and this was trying to come up with some key items that are actionable without being so exhaustive that the information be cumbersome to accumulate or really too cumbersome to be able to work through Well let me follow up I. D I can Mr. Chair, I certainly don't want is useless document and I'm going to get to my second question on constant staffing but I think on that first one to representative Dickson this morning and Representative Cotham is going to be a lot of reasons teachers are going to list their are going to be some that are going to rank in more than others Seems to me you almost have to make it usable have a functional subset data of the categories to say 752 teachers left because of pay 600, because there's principal that support them. You're almost going to have to get that right in order to make it readable and usable. I'm not adding it anything. I'm just suggesting that what they are saying is really got to be part of process of looking at the data, right what I have got is, I've got a copy of the existing report here, and when I go to page ten, they got a table that says, "top five top self reported reasons for turn over in 2014. " and they go from resign due to teach another school system, retire before benefits, retire from family relations. We do collect that, and they do have a table saying what the self reported reason you can't make at that. So, what we doing. My other thank you, my only other question is really a constant, staffed one and it's just a common within a question some of this data collected affect all of this pretty well collected at the local levels just not consistent, and we're trying to aggregate it and use it, which make sense otherwise sort of were collected, but I do want to point like the point that this is another requirement being put on the department on SPE, and think a legitimate one but there is a cost and there is staff requirement here and so as we go through our budget process once again we talk about DPI and and the house didn't cut DPI staff I would encourage that same thing on the senate side because we are continuing to add the responsibility not taking away any function and this is going to take some time, and I think it's an important collection data and I would just encourage that to be considered on the budget side. Thank you Thank you. I think that you bring a good point there. Representative Harley Thank you Mr. Chair. Senator [xx] I think this is a good idea because we there are all the time teachers are leaving and we don't always know the numbers [xx] and this I think this is a good thing to do and appropriate time I like to do. If it's alright with the committee we are going to go a head and move to the amendment and then we can wrap up the discussion on the bill as a whole the amendment has been passed out to you its brought forward to you by Representative Stam I want to recognize him so he can explain his amendment Thanks this is suggested by best in sea which is the business group for education this is the statistical report we have lots of statistics including [xx] and so this just say they

would just aggregate the data by effectiveness ratings that, that mean any particular, this is purely statistical. My work in assumption is the people live or probably or a random sample of effective or not, but you hear all our very best teachers are the ones leaving are worst teachers once living am bet its just lay them as samples but this with this aggregate together by that we have that data anyway. Representative Mier. Thank you Mr. Chairman, I'm intrigued by these data, I would be interested to get it some of that information, however I'm reluctant to add a reference to the EVVAS[SP?] evaluation data in the statute at this time I think that, that is something we are just beginning to use in the State. We haven't really figured out whether that data is really valid and I would rather until we have gathered what we could use before we put it into statute way Representative Glazier. Thank you Mr. Chairman, and I share Representative Miers concerns on that, but I First I'd like to ask a question mostly because I feel that somebody, I always should ask a question of a bill Representative Stam has in education, but it but seriously the question I do have is, I think you've explained it but I want to make sure I understand it, it's the dis-aggregation Rep is that, who is going when that process of doing that, is this expected that the state board will do that it is expected that those involved directly in the e-bus system will do it? Who is supposed to do the aggregation Could I ask you a question of staff, the way I see ended up there, it was Northside the educator valuation system parenthesis NCEES, is that the same thing? That is not the same thing as he was, is it? No I have EVAS so my copy Well my copy of the amendment but what I have seen up there is something different and I hurriedly That's a staff here I apologize if the committee would be willing to discuss EVAS should be NCEES I apologies Does that answer the question of some pleasure? It's certainly takes care of the other problem for me but I still got the question of who's gonna do the function? The statisticians who produced the report I mean they've this for each teacher so they just push three buttons and it spits it out. We'll consider that legislative intent Mr. Chair may I speak on the amendment. Yes you may. Thank you representative Stan for putting that forward, you bring up a great if we got an education system where our best teachers are living in a that huge problem, If we got education system that is encouraging and promoting our worst teachers to live in those to do something else and that's great. Finding that data is a key point in us looking to retain and attract Representative Fisher You know I think we can go ahead and vote on the amendment and then I can something to ask about the the amendment is dealt with. Okay. Thank you Representative. Any more questions on the amendment itself? Okay the amendment is before you all in favor of the amendment say aye. Aye. Any opposed. Okay the amendment is there. So, Representative Fisher you can speak on the bill. Thank you Mr. Chairman, actually I have first a question for Senator Suecheck, this amendment that we just passed deals with what I consider to be a fairly politicized question. The matter of whether effective teachers leaving or non-effective teachers are leaving, that seems to be have been fairly politicizes, and so my question to you is why would we not ask the pay question and your response to that earlier was because there was a political question more or less, and I think that it really kind of lands in the same category if you're a good teacher or a bad teacher. So I'm wondering if you would be willing on the letter B the number of teachers who left employment to teach another step, if you could add to that including reasons of salary. It could be the salary

was too much, the salary was too little, I didn't get enough benefits, whatever the question is, but I that that question of teacher effectiveness as just can be made, just as politicized as the pay question, and I'm wondering if you might consider adding that. I think you're overemphasizing one statement out of a whole bunch of statements I made as to why doing this. I don't believe that's an over politicized. It's a collection of really raw data. You've got the information from the Teacher Evaluation System, it can be collected quite well and I think that when we start asking specific questions like that, there's no as too which questions and this question should be asked. This is really a first tab, I think that is isn't an important question. If there is a place to be reporting on that, I think that what we're doing here is a little bit of a cleaner collection of data that's going to be more useful. And then as this moves forward, just like we're many at this time and if we find from that data that we need to go a little bit deeper here or there, I think that we could move forward with that but I just, I'm not comfortable with that type of specific Representative Lucky.  Thank you Mr. Chairman question I think for the [xx] he's with all the six categories that you have in [xx] is this a check list for the staff? or his staff is supposed to write a paragraph about each of this. Which staff are you referring to? DPI, no it's says each personnel eventually and each they are looking the bill summary need LEA is provided this and ask to provide summative data on why teachers have left teaching. Do they just check anything the list of six do they just check those who those that we see is  though at the ALA level on each expected to write it sound he is trying to get what the burden of local ALA  well have the data the check list versus a paragraph is very different alright our intend was to collect data in the list it is of matter somebody is trying to create a system that you can that whole a lot of effort cause questions are already yours whis is illegal and make part but not if you have got staff that might have an answer to The [xx] information is quite adoring and they are going to be survey and old fashion information from [xx] database why do you always target information from as teacher for passion? Follow up does not mean One school is to be with do with the [xx] and another wait some nextime into regarding more retail comments. Well the Statute says, The State Board shall adopt standard procedures for each local board of education to use in requesting the information so I would think it would be standardized that perhaps, we could ask the State Board to weigh in we've got about four, five minute of discussion and I have got four people to speak is there anybody Mr. Chairman I didn't get an answer to I apologize apologize Representative Lucky[sp?] the staff suggest as some of SV might address that question of varying data by district Rachel do you want to address that? [xx] can someone be kind enough to repeat the question please question is the information is coming to you from a standardize form from the LEA's, is that accurate? That is accurate. accurate, and staff knows a figure amount about how the data is collected but the the important thing to emphasize. One important thing is that, this is data that is basically self reported so the locals rely on what a given teacher living the profession is willing to disclose in the way of his/her departure Quick follow up Miss Jim. Well, he's an you

are able to just hit different reasons, checklist or is it Yes So a checklist is okay? You don't the staff doesn't actually have to write anything could just say pay, working conditions, tough environment Correct thank you Representative Richardson Thank you Mr. Chairman if I may I, I have two questions when I look at the check this day, there is nothing here regarding, teaching their contrast were not renewed would that not be vital bit of formation to know who is [xx] [xx], they left because the school's system choose not to have the best on their performance that's question number one, and question number two is we collect data and we share school district with uncollected data but there is nothing and here to encourage anyone to answer this question, I don't think appropriately because we what this date is going to be used for to explain is to improve our teaching profession, be able to staff more people but how will the teachers know that that's your goal if it's not in your bill here. Thank you. First question with staff isn't that information is already collected isn't it? Yes the first question that information is collected for teachers who's contracts not renewed. The second question is, I agree that's important to cast vision, I think that the LEA is very sufficient to cast vision when you're talking to a teacher of why you are trying to do this I don't know you want to put it in statue as a state wide measure dictating exactly how you communicate that and also to go to another question before, not all is voluntary because some of the data we have on the amendment you've got that data when someone you know that they leave and you know what their performance was, so you can calculate that, but also people have first handed rights to speak or not to speak. You can't force a teacher to explain what they're doing. It could be a medical if the issue they have the right to be able to live to their own provision and for their own reason, so we are trying to create an environment to collect more data if not perfect but hopefully will get some information that helps us serve teachers and students more better. Representative Dickson, Thank you Mr. Chair, just a statement members of the committee this bill simply says the state board should adopt standard procedures for each local board of education to use and requesting the information from teachers who are not continuing to work. My follow up representative Cortam was not to say that that was not important but to highlight that it is important and this simply ask teachers why they are leaving. We don't need to suggest the answers to them this is a good deal. This begins the process there are a lot of us folks out here are saying to each other and other people why the teachers are leaving. this is an attempt to actually go to the horse's mouth and find out why the teachers are leaving, I like it. Vote for it. Representative Pittman. Thank you Mr. Chairman, I think there's a thing in the court of law that one attorney can object to the other attorney prompting to witness and I think some of the things being suggested here amount to prompting to witness, A under this is plenty wide open a teacher in this situation [xx] are all ready going to have their own list of reasons that they'll be glad to stay if they feel they need to and sometimes you go suggesting things to people maybe they hadn't though of it and say, "Ooh yeah That too!" Instead of it being a gentleman response, so I think this is this is wide open, they can say what they feel they need to say all ready and so I don't think we need to make this any more cumbersome. I think leaving it wide open is the best way, I like this bill. Thank you Representative [xx] Last word. Quick question for Senator Suchek, for teachers retiring which one of these categories will they become We do have, pone of the categories was I'm trying to find put exactly teachers and leaving their profession with four salary and benefits [xx] in one category well, I guess right now that is one of the smartest top five self supported reason and number two as type of full benefits, that's being collected my capacity Okay, that's not I don't think there is a specific category that we are calculating. I guess we can have lots of different opinions as of

what information is [xx] we try to come up with things we thought is could be the most useful without it being cumbersome on either side. This kind of what we up with. One [xx] Mr. Chair Quickly I really appreciate the [xx] I just feel like maybe this bill written as not quite descriptive enough or over descriptive and just doesn't feel ready for me, it doesn't answer enough questions. Representative Hurley thank you Mr. Chair, I move for a favourable report for senate committee substitute number 333 as amended . Okay, we've the motion in front of you, all in favour of the motion say aye? Aye. Any oppose? The aye's have it, we're and thank you, thank you senator.